Current economic woes

[GT2000]

So how is everybody handling things with the jump in prices.. not just the gas, but with everything out there going up. Gas prices here are in the mid 3's, which I know isn't too bad compared to some places, but that's because the living costs are higher in those places, so it's basically the same as people in Cali paying $4+.

Driving less, walking/biking more? I can't, nothing is in walking distance for me, and work is in the next city over so biking would be.. dumb.

"Stimulus" checks are in the mail, I think we get ours this week or next, what are you using it on?

Ours is going into savings, it will be stimulating our personal economy.

[raublekick]

Gas seems about the same as you. Like you, there isn't much in walking distance. The grocery store is close enough, and I'll probably start walking there. Work is close enough that I probably could bike, but I need to stay fresh and clean which will NOT happen if I bike...

I've been spending money in ways that I probably shouldn't lately, but I'm kind of starting to slow down not just because we're in a slump, but because I spend too much god damned money on stupid stuff.

[thecreeper]

i noticed just prices of food in general are awful. i usually go to the grocery store once a month and buy most stuff at once and its been near 150+ bucks, and sure its a decent amount of stuff, but my god, i swear this cost half this price a year or so ago...

[Mr Biglesworth]

I bike or walk everywhere so gas prices don't affect me there. I recently payed into a community supported farm where I get a weekly share of their produce. You pay at the beginning of the summer and I understand it's a good amount of food, so I should be getting the majority of my groceries from there (gonna have to learn how to cook some different veggies). They use draft horses, not tractors, so they're not affected by fuel prices either.

[raditz]

if those tree huggin assholes would let us drill our own oil it wouldn't be so bad, and at least we wouldn't be supporting some shit country while ours is going down the tube

[Mr Biglesworth]

RADITZ '08: ASSHOLES BACK TO SHIT COUNTRY!

[johnny]

if those tree huggin assholes would let us drill our own oil it wouldn't be so bad, and at least we wouldn't be supporting some shit country while ours is going down the tube
actually i think your country is the shit country now! sucks for you :)

[GT2000]

Yeah, but we're going to take everyone else down with us.. so sucks to be you! I've been saying, we need to start drilling in Alaska, fuck the national wildlife refuge, or whatever it is (besides, if we can drill oil from the bottom of the ocean without tooo many bad occurrences, I think we can drill through some ice).

[raublekick]

Really China is the asshole country that's taking everyone down. Sure, America made some pretty big mistakes. But we were pioneers and our mistakes are to be learned from, not emulated. China used to be filled with bikes, but now lots more people drive cars, and not good cars, old crappy cars. But China thinks they have every right to be an industrialized nation. Fair enough, but at least look at how fast we're sinking (all the good tech industries are moving away, take advantage of that rising nations uh durr!!!)

Our failing economy has a lot more to it than just our unwillingness to drill oil in our own backyard. We, more than ever, are stuck in our ways. How much innovation was born in the U.S.? LOTS! We could have had electric cars since the 70s, but people liked Camaros. And now it's SUVs. But now we see those industries moving to other countries. Japan has the car market down. Germany has the solar and wind power market down. The middle east as a whole has the oil market down. We let shit slip through our fingers because we take our personal liberties a little too seriously.

"But I have every right to drive an SUV!" Yeah? Well you're gonna be the demise of this country by keeping antiquated technology in fashion while other opportunities go right out the window, so fuck you!

</end rant>

[GT2000]

There's a sales contest going on at work this year, with names going into a drawing for an '08 mercury mariner hybrid. If I were to win, I plan on selling it to get the Mustang I've been wanting.:applause:

[Liss]

Cost of living in California means nothing for the unemployed, and right now there is no job to be found. They've laid off hundreds of teachers and professors despite 40+ classroom sizes, etc, and nobody in the state is hiring because they can't afford to. I couldn't even find a bartending/waitressing job! And with gas getting so high (I live in the suburbs and had to pay 3.99 last week...you should see the gas prices in downtown LA and San Fran), people are getting desperate. I'm moving back to Alabama for the summer, then hopefully out of the country...(although even then I'm screwed because of the worth of the dollar.)

I don't think the problem is with where we drill, necessarily. Alaska doesn't have enough oil to support this country for very long. I think the problem is more, yea, in personal choices. On any given day I drive into LA or Riverside or San Diego or Pasadena, there are hundreds and hundreds of Navigators, Explorers, Excursions, F150s, etc...with ONE person inside, driving to work. It takes a hundred bucks for these people to fill their tanks and they burn every gallon in three days. People drive their kids around the block to school instead of walking with them. People drive to the neighborhood gym. People drive three blocks to work. It's ridiculous.

[Mr Biglesworth]

Great doc if you get the chance:
http://www.radiantcitymovie.com/

[johnny]

Yeah, but we're going to take everyone else down with us.. so sucks to be you! I've been saying, we need to start drilling in Alaska, fuck the national wildlife refuge, or whatever it is (besides, if we can drill oil from the bottom of the ocean without tooo many bad occurrences, I think we can drill through some ice).
how about fuck drilling for oil in a national wildlife refuge, and find ways to be less dependent on nonrenewable resources? as raub has mentioned, there has been ample opportunity over the past few decades for major advancements and innovations -- better late than never, right? drilling for oil in alaska is nothing more than a band-aid solution. how long will it be good for? how many more years before there's more discussion of economic woes, oil/gasoline shortages, etc? and when that happens, what can you do? not a fucking lot!

(not that canadians are any better off. i'm just sayin'..)

[GT2000]

I'm pretty sure we won't see huge gains in Americans using "greener" technology until there is some sort of government enforcement, as dumb as it sounds, but you know most Americans aren't going to do that shit on their own. As a nation in whole, we hate change. Not to mention at the rate of the technology coming along, it's going to be a while before we see any big changes. The state power company here is in a project with other companies building wind farms in the mid-west to send power this way over the grid, ok, that helps a little. Not everyone wants to get hybrids, because they aren't saving that much on gas, and since they cost a couple/few grand, sometimes 5 grand plus more, that's something to stop a lot of people. Electric hybrids? I don't know too much about them since we don't have many around, not a fan of plugging in a car though, and I'm sure they still use a good bit of energy anyways, I don't know though on this one.

Here's a real hybrid for all you fuckers.

http://gas2.org/2008/05/14/a-truck-that-runs-on-coffee-grounds-and-how-wood-gas-powers-cars-with-garbage/

[raditz]

I don't think the problem is with where we drill, necessarily. Alaska doesn't have enough oil to support this country for very long.

i heard them talking about this on the radio today at work and estimations right now are that there's enough oil and natural gas on U.S. land to last us for over 100 years without buying anything from a foreign market.

Venezuela owns the gas used in the Citgo chain of gas stations. They provide gasoline for their country at a whopping 12 cents a gallon - http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/

Not only are we paying alot more to buy from foreign countries, we're supporting jerks like Hugo Chavez -

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_citgo_boycott.htm


btw... everyone in Venezuela drives SUV's and HUMMER's

[johnny]

I'm pretty sure we won't see huge gains in Americans using "greener" technology until there is some sort of government enforcement, as dumb as it sounds, but you know most Americans aren't going to do that shit on their own. As a nation in whole, we hate change. Not to mention at the rate of the technology coming along, it's going to be a while before we see any big changes.
what irritates me is that i think it's possible that these "big changes" could have already happened if the world (not just the u.s. and a.) had placed more of a focus on renewable resources a few decades ago. i mean, do we really have to wait until the last-minute-total-desperation sort of scenario to happen? :/

and rad, sure, if there are 100 years worth of oil and natural gas on u.s. land that's great! providing that that's accurate, it'll get you through your lifetime -- but then.. what? doesn't that feel really nearsighted to you? of course we could hope that those 100 years would buy time to continue developing alternate/green/renewable technologies, but if people don't feel any pressure to do anything about it now, can we be certain that that extra time won't just be squandered? or you could just move to venezuela and start paying 12 cents per gallon 8P

[Liss]

I think this hundred years you mention is our own oil reserve. There are a few hundred barrels of oil added to underground reserve areas every day. They are there in case of a catastrophe though, if history proves anything it's that we need reserves of natural resources, like clean water. Besides, you think if the government said, okay guys, we got enough to last 100 years, everyone use it carefully...there wouldn't be a mad scramble to stock-pile gas? The prices would shoot through the roof.

Johnny's right. Human beings are the most wasteful creatures. It goes beyond electric cars and solar energy though. I mean, come on, we just now figured out that we should recycle plastic bottles...in California, recycling is totally the new chic trend, you know.

I was in Los Angeles yesterday. Gas was at an average of 4.09, but I saw it as high as 4.16. I myself paid 3.99 in the suburbs. It's going to keep climbing. We've dug ourselves so deeply into this hole that there is no light for miles. Except the dim light from our natural gas powered lanterns, of course. I do hope though that we can do a better job for our (eventual) children than the generations before did for us.

[raditz]

1. the oil is in the ground

2. in 100 years i think we'll have figured out alternative energies .... you guys missed my point entirely heh

3. no i don't care about ppl 100 years from now

[heX]

liss, youre a cunt. johnny, who the fuck cares what you have to say. is canada even recognized by the UN?

[johnny]

2. in 100 years i think we'll have figured out alternative energies .... you guys missed my point entirely heh

3. no i don't care about ppl 100 years from now
2: gee, that's reassuring (that you think everything will be figured out). no sense of urgency or anything though, right? more concerned about pinching pennies on a tank of gas for the near future.. why should we care if the fuel we're burning is actually sustainable?

3: i can't tell if you're being facetious :|

[raditz]

lol johnny, why are you so worked up about it? we're on the verge right now of finding other ways... what makes you think that in 100 years we're gonna be fucked? 100 years ago the horse was the number one way to get around - look at all the stuff that's happened since 1900. i'm not worried about oil 100 years from now in the least. right now it's the largest and most efficent source of energy we have, and i hear all the time about how they're finding more and more of it in different spots. it's all over canada and mexico. we've got it alaska, off the coast of florida, in the great lakes - none of which we're allowed to touch. obviously south america and the middle east have plenty.

there are people holding this country back and it pisses me off. we're not allowed to use our own oil or build refineries - and we're not allowed to go nuclear either when every other country has deemed it a safe clean way of producing alot of power. they won't even let us use coal anymore. we've tried building windmills but the very people who won't let us drill or build say that they're an eyesore .... it's all one big mess of nonsense. now i don't expect you to understand how i feel - you're not an american. canada is a fine country, sure, and i'm sure if you thought that your government was lacking in common sense then you'd get frustrated too. i see where things are headed and it makes me sad, and it makes me sick to think that people are letting it happen.

[johnny]

oh, i'm sure the canadian government is lacking common sense too. just on different agendas/policies/whatevers :) don't even get me started about the canadian conservative party...

i guess the reason i'm so worked up is because it seems like a genuinely important and pressing issue to me. to be so blasé about it, and assume that within X# of years things will work themselves out, feels like a much too complacent approach. how many of us are reliant on oil and natural gas..? and nobody seems at all interested in preparing for a day when we can't rely on those resources anymore. after all, there isn't an endless supply. you seem to be taking for granted the fact that technological advancements will just happen--poof! like magic--simply because they've happened before. i don't think citing what has happened in the last century can guarantee anything for the next, necessarily.

[heX]

you're acting like we'd be consuming more resources. rads not proposing using all the resources we currently are, then using US owned resources on top of that. its a replacement effect not a cumulative one.

[johnny]

but do you honestly think that if you could use u.s. resources (at a lower cost, 'cause that's what rad seems to be going for) people wouldn't consume more, simply because they could afford to again? ultimately, it all seems to be about money -- so if gas is cheaper, i have a feeling that most people will enable themselves to use more of it. humans are wasteful!

[heX]

well if thats your argument for why we should use foreign resources, wouldn't it make more sense to regulate consumption? im not saying i even agree with your presumption, but if the only good reason not to use are own resources is because it would be cheap and that means we can afford more of it. wouldnt the logical thing be to limit how much can be used rather than paying inflated rates to foreign countries?

[raditz]

global warming nuts are going to start trying to do exactly that. start saving up for your "carbon credits" people ;-)

[heX]

global warming nuts are going to start trying to do exactly that. start saving up for your "carbon credits" people ;-)

i wasn't saying we should limit consumption, for the record. i was just saying if it was between that and 4 dollars a gallon to terrorist, i would choose that.

[Liss]

I don't like spending a fortune on gas either (especially as a bi-annual cross-country driver and a resident of Los Angeles County.) but Johnny's right--this is the first time the world has recognized that they should limit their driving, buy more conservative vehicles, carpool, utilize public transport etc, at least on a wide scale. High prices, like it or not, are the only way people will be driven to actually switch to alternative fuel sources eventually, in my opinion, and who's to say that despite being close to alternatives we will turn to them without selfish motivation? When electric cars emerged, just a thin slice of the population bought into them, same with smart cars, etc...it's just not as convenient or as comfortable as a gasoline powered Navigator.

It's not as much about the environment as it is about the fact that fossil fuels are not never-ending. What we have in North America is no where near what the middle east has. We need to make the switch now.

I don't know if that actually gets my point across. It's bedtime.

Oh, and Hex, I am not a cunt.

[heX]

It's not as much about the environment as it is about the fact that fossil fuels are not never-ending. What we have in North America is no where near what the middle east has. We need to make the switch now.

I don't know if that actually gets my point across. It's bedtime.


neither you or johnny have explained why the only possible way to limit consumption is to pay overpay foreigners. this is really two different discussions being balled up into one.

if you feel high prices are necessary otherwise we will consume too much, then that is a round about way of regulated gas. it also is killing our economy. having a debate about using a credit system or not would be where you could argue that americans consume too much natural resources. overpaying for oil is not a propper way to control consumption.

Oh, and Liss, yeah you are.

[raublekick]

I don't think anyone's saying we should raise prices to cause people to limit driving. But I think it's pretty obvious that most Americans don't give a shit until it starts hitting their wallet, and these high prices at the pump are causing more people to be concerned.

[heX]

I don't think anyone's saying we should raise prices to cause people to limit driving. But I think it's pretty obvious that most Americans don't give a shit until it starts hitting their wallet, and these high prices at the pump are causing more people to be concerned.

maybe. doesnt change that we could be paying alot less for gas.

[raublekick]

maybe. doesnt change that we could be paying alot less for gas.
and we could be paying for a lot less gas, just sayin'

[heX]

and we could be paying for a lot less gas, just sayin'

how about both.

[raublekick]

how about both.

sure. we either have to increase supply or decrease demand. increasing supply is a lot of dirty work for oil companies who are already making tons of money. decreasing demand is a lot of clean work that opens up new job opportunities in a field that is relatively new.

[raditz]

sure. we either have to increase supply or decrease demand. increasing supply is a lot of dirty work for oil companies who are already making tons of money. decreasing demand is a lot of clean work that opens up new job opportunities in a field that is relatively new.

actually the oil companies have been trying to build and develop new refineries and oil wells for years and years, but the environmentalists won't let them. "big oil" isn't making more of a profit now than it ever has, and building new refineries and pumps would create new jobs while lowering the price of gasoline drastically.

[raublekick]

actually the oil companies have been trying to build and develop new refineries and oil wells for years and years, but the environmentalists won't let them. "big oil" isn't making more of a profit now than it ever has, and building new refineries and pumps would create new jobs while lowering the price of gasoline drastically.
oh ok (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8646744/)

If they can't make new refineries, and they have record profits with nothing to spend them on... how about invest and redirect into future energy possibilities. Why can't they be an ENERGY company instead of an OIL company?

[Liss]

actually the oil companies have been trying to build and develop new refineries and oil wells for years and years, but the environmentalists won't let them. "big oil" isn't making more of a profit now than it ever has, and building new refineries and pumps would create new jobs while lowering the price of gasoline drastically.

Oil companies are also responsible for the failure to make fuel cell powered vehicles a daily American tool. We have the technology to make the change to renewable fuel--hydrogen--right now--but the oil companies have bought and now own every patent.

I mean, if it's about creating new job opportunities, how about overhauling its entirety?

[Liss]

PS. I had to pay 4.20 for gas today and saw regular for as high as 4.29. In Burbank, an extension of LA, the lowest I saw today was 4.27 while it ranged into the 4.30s.

Only yesterday, the same gas station I went to was at 4.07.

[GT2000]

It's in the 3.70s here, I paid 3.79 the other day.

[heX]

We've been around 4.08+ for a while. i disagree with brandon. oil companies have gone out of their way to avoid more refineries. it creates an artificial demand, allowing them to make more profit.

If I had it my way, we'd drill our own oil, as well as build more refineries. I want to get off our dependency of oil. if the only way that this can be done is by conserving how much is used, so be it. I would rather explore other avenues on how to push innovation ahead in reusable resources, but we can discuss that after we stop funding the economy of other countries ahead of our own.

I want to have a cleaner environment just as much as most people and more than quite a few. Over paying foreign countries and big businesses is not the way to do it. For the most part I agree with liss, johnny, raub, and all the other people that think we are wasteful and it needs to change. I just think a you are considering the wrong tools to do it.

Oil companies are also responsible for the failure to make fuel cell powered vehicles a daily American tool.

its not their job retard

[raublekick]

its not their job retard

not their job, but they are still partly responsible. surely the oil companies have a hand in keeping alternate resources held back, and they have patents that prevent certain batteries from being used.

i don't think it's really fair to say that any of us are considering the wrong tools since... none of us really offered anything other than economic models and reduction of our wasteful lifestyles.

however, i don't really think things like ethanol and stuff like that are really a good thing. an alternate fuel that is harder to make and less efficient than gasoline isn't a very good alternative.

[heX]

Unless I missed out, I thought we were discussing the pros and cons of drilling our own oil. I thought johnny and liss were making the point that it is a pro that high prices keep us from consuming more, and a con of drilling our own is that we would use more. Which unless I misunderstood them, I would consider over paying for oil, the wrong tool for managing consumption.

Back to the original discussion:
I only see one real reason to not drill for oil in America, and that is to preserving wild life habitats. So my question would have to be to all Americans: Why are you ok if other people do it, and you will pay them top dollar to ensure they do, with no morale dilemma. But you consider drilling our own oil an outrageous proposition?

If there are other reasons not to drill our own oil, I guess I don't see them. Since using our own oil does not = using more. However it does = more American jobs and lower gas prices.

[raublekick]

On the wildlife habitats issue, none of us were around when other oil fields were drilled, so we can't really be for or against the drilling there. It's already been done. Plus most of the oil comes from the middle east in desert regions where there is a minimal habitat, so, in comparison to a lush environment like Alaska, it's not quite the same.

Are you serious about the "not = using more" thing? Already people are cutting back little by little because of gas prices. Cheap oil may not exactly mean using more directly, but it certainly would cause plenty of complacency. If we're paying $1 / gal right now, what reason is there to develop alternatives? I think the past 30 or so years of U.S. economic history agrees with me here.

[raublekick]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/ptech/06/02/young.electric.car.ap/index.html

Neil Young knows what's up.

[Stormy]

then hopefully out of the country...(although even then I'm screwed because of the worth of the dollar.)
Naw. I'm paid in dollars, buying in pounds. I'm doing alright. It just takes some willpower and an aversion to alcohol (or at least the British drinking cultures).

I'm hoping to stay out of the country. Don't know if I'll be able to, though. ::fingers crossed::

[GT2000]

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/24828/Fund-Manager-Why-200-Oil-Would-Be-a-'Good'-Thing?tickers=WMT,BJS,COST,USO,DUG,GM,SNE

[Liss]

Paid 4.54 for regular yesterday. Cheapest I could find. What was with the leap? Our gas went from 4.17 to 4.43 in two days, and has continued to go up a few cents each day. Is that everyone or just Los Angeles?

[Liss]

Oh, and Amelia, I'm glad to hear you're doing alright budget-wise, because that's the issue making me most nervous about moving. The good thing for me, though, is that Spain has supposedly kept their prices reasonable despite the high cost of the UK. If I get the job I'm after I'll be paid in euros and I'll be able to supplement my income too, of course I just won't ever return to the states with any money. ::shrug::

[heX]

the gas station across the street from me was selling gas for .99 from 7-10am. I found otu and got in line at 7:19, I know this becuase of time stamps on my phone. Due to line jumpers, fender benerds and fights, I got to the gas station exactly at 10:00 to see the prices flip from .99 to 4.12 ...son of a

[thecreeper]

wow...why would they sell gas that cheap? to make people hurt each other?

[heX]

wow...why would they sell gas that cheap? to make people hurt each other?

probably so they could record the insanity and market as a ppv

[GT2000]

It's really steadied out lately.. been anywhere between 3.70 and 3.95 here for the past month +. Still fucking blows.

[thecreeper]

i'm really tired of treading water with my finances lately. i get by, but if it was 2 years ago and i was making the same amount of money right now, i'd be in a lot better shape.

[GT2000]

We still haven't cracked $4/gal around here as an overall average, but it's coming pretty fucking close, it makes me angry. And there's honestly nothing that I can personally do about the gas that we have to buy and use right now.

[Mike]

They use draft horses, not tractors, so they're not affected by fuel prices either.

Somewhat. Not to get overly economic and political, but we.. well.. congress.. has created an enhanced artificial relationship between the cost of fuel and the cost of food, by subsidizing crops used to generate bio-fuel... A political goldmine, but at an economic, humanitarian, and environmental cost. The spike in food prices in mid 2007 was the result of this, and as fuel prices increase -- which they have since levelled off in the last 45 days -- the price of agricultural and food increased, which drives up the cost of feed. It was a bipartisan political manuever so that this congress could see a menial bump in approval ratings... it did not, and the unfortunate consequence is a semi-permanent link between energy and food where there wasn't as much of one before.

--

As for the economic woes... my 403(b) has tanked. I used to look forward to getting my free-money report in the mail from TIAA-CREF and now it's just the bearer of bad news. I conserve gas pretty well as it is and ride my bike almost anywhere that I *can.* I work a mile from home so I really only fill up once a month, if that. My old house was closer to more stuff... food, supermarket, etc, but my new place is closer to work... so it's a give and take.

Other than that, not much has changed in terms of my spending because of the economy. Dating costs too much money, but other than that... things are how they are.

[Mike]

Of course, as the perpetual contrived optimist... When people complain too much about gas prices, like when at work or whatever, I'm quick to put it into context. For the first time in human history, roughly 10,000 years of history properly understood, all manner of people in fourth most populated country in the world are able to travel hundreds of miles without puting much thought into it. If any of us wanted to, really, tomorrow, or two weeks from now, or a month from today, we could drive 500 miles... for no reason. In the anals of human history, prior to just a generation before ours, the average person in the most prosperous country in the world would rarely travel outside his own locality in his life time. Prior to that, only the wealthiest and most affluent people in the Earth could travel anywhere ... and even then, it was a several week or month journey where the odds of you losing your life were relatively high.

I still think it's a major shock to the collective human psyche if such a thing exists..

[Mike]

2: gee, that's reassuring (that you think everything will be figured out). no sense of urgency or anything though, right? more concerned about pinching pennies on a tank of gas for the near future.. why should we care if the fuel we're burning is actually sustainable?

3: i can't tell if you're being facetious :|

There's a big graph of different lines and points and figures*. It would list many things, efficiency, cost, environmental effects, and so on. Oil, as much as we hate to admit it, sits right at the middle of this graph... It is the most efficient, the most cost effective, and one of the least environmentally damaging of those 'efficient / cost effective' solutions. The ethanol push, in 2006, was a huge lobbying scam and we're paying the price now. Hydrogen is a hoax. Fuel cells are less efficient and cost effective, but are reasonable alternatives... but at this point, they are no less environmentally friendly, over the life of a car, than a 1998 gas-guzzling SUV.

We could, perhaps, change our way of life... but we have to remember: our way of life has made for the most prosperous mass of people in the annals of human history. In the 120 years the "Big Oil" has appeared on the global scene, the world has exponentially gained in literacy, collective health, and quality of life. The impact that oil has on this is staggering... it is the lifeblood of the wealthiest economy in the history of the universe, and advances in technology, education, politics, health sciences, and so on, is the fruit of that economy.

* This graph does not actually exist, but it could if someone were willing to take the time to draw it.

[Mike]

Drilling in Alaska, though, is not the solution. We have to accept more changes and deregulate the industry. We have to drop silly myths about oil companies and government, get rid of the idea of "windfall taxes," drain our strategic oil reserve, tap ANWR, drop sulfur restrictions, end energy-based grain subsidies, begin drilling for shale oil (which has been economically viable since gas hit the $2.80+/- mark) drop food exporting tarifs/limits, and stop letting our emotions get the better of our economic sense.

[heX]

Drilling in Alaska, though, is not the solution. We have to accept more changes and deregulate the industry. We have to drop silly myths about oil companies and government, get rid of the idea of "windfall taxes," drain our strategic oil reserve, tap ANWR, drop sulfur restrictions, end energy-based grain subsidies, begin drilling for shale oil (which has been economically viable since gas hit the $2.80+/- mark) drop food exporting tarifs/limits, and stop letting our emotions get the better of our economic sense.

Not disagreeing that other options come first, I still don't see a 'good' reason to not drill Alaska if we needed to. Hey, if it doesn't need to be done, don't do it, but I also wouldn't put it on the 'do not touch' list.

I'm not disagreeing with your statement, just wanted to add my disclaimer for future debate should it arise.

edit: and good to see you around.